Talk:Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū

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English version vs others.[edit]

Why does the French version site many branches and the English version insist there is only one? Politics? The article is not therefore factual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:46, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is the age-old "schismatic schools of Katori Shinto ryu" discussion. It is getting bored to watch the reverts about it over the years. I stopped educating people about it long time ago. Just read the correct references and you'll understand it. jni (delete)...just not interested 18:28, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have been observing it too and I agree. It doesn't shed a glorious light upon the ryu as a whole, that they are not able settle a feudthis old... talking about codes of honour...
Why not add a neutral statement along the lines of "For several decades there has been a dispute among the different schools's students about wether Yukihiro Sugino has all necessary legitimisation to teach alongside Risuke Otake." ?

In answer to the last question: it's only ever been a question by US students of Otake as far I can I can understand (they have even gone as far as to alter translations of Otake's books, which he has apologised for). Sugino is fully recognised by the Soke. End of story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nealie67 (talkcontribs) 16:02, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

-- (talk) 21:26, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Questioning the historical accuracy of some statements[edit]

I'm not sure some of the statements made in this article are historically accurate. For example, claiming that the sword was the main weapon of the era. I believe in the 1400s the main weapon was in fact NOT the sword, it was in the spear (yari) and likely the bow. The sword did not become a "main" weapon until the Edo period after 1600, I think.

Also, claiming that the bushi couldn't raise swords above their heads due to their kabuto? That strikes me as odd. I'd like to see real citations for that. I could be wrong but I think that's very unlikely. Kazrian (talk) 06:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Marishiten as Krishna?[edit]

I believe this is a very bold statement, that requires some further clarification. It makes absolute sense that the samurais in pre-Edo civil war torn Japan would seek refuge in Krishna, which is, among many things, a counsellor to warriors. The image of a meditative monk like that of the Buddha was certainly not the most inspiring in times when arrows and very sharp swords were flying everywhere. The Bhagavad Gita discourse is in its essence a bellicose dialogue that happens midst the battlefield.

A quick online research doesn’t shed much light on this claim. Here’s what different scholars have to say:

According to Saroj Kumar Chaudhuri: “Indian mythology projects Marīci as one of the ten mind-born children of Brahmā (Jp. = Bonten). The word Marīci itself appears in the Rig Veda, meaning ‘ray of light of the sun or the moon.’ In Japan, however, this deity was treated as a female divinity. She enjoyed some popularity among practitioners of martial arts and entertainers who prayed to her for success. Otherwise, she had little popularity in Japan. She is virtually ignored in popular [Japanese] literature. She is said to be positioned in fornt of the sun and hence invisible. Evils can be eliminated by chanting her mantra. She fought taking the side of Indra (Jp. = Taishakuten) when the Asura attacked Indra to recover the Asura king’s daughter (then Indra’s consort). In the 12th century, Marīci was worshipped in China for protection. From around this time, she became popular in Japan also, especially among warriors and entertainers.”

William Edward Soothill says: “Spelled Marīci (Sanskrit). Rays of light, the sun’s rays, said to go before the sun; mirage. A goddess, independent and sovereign, protectress against all violence and peril. In Brahmanic mythology, the personification of light, offspring of Brahmā, parent of Sūrya. Among Chinese Buddhists Marīci is represented as a female with eight arms, two of which are holding aloft emblems of sun and moon, and worshipped as goddess of light and as the guardian of all nations, whom she protects from the fury of war. She is addressed as 天后 queen of heaven, or as 斗姥 (literally “mother of the Southern Measure μλρστζ or Sagittarī), and identified with Tchundi and with Mahēśvarī, the wife of Maheśvara, and has therefore the attribute Mātrikā -- Mother of the Myriad Buddha. Taoists address her as Queen of Heaven.” <end quote> Soothill also identifies Marīci with Saptakotibuddha-mātṛ (Shichikuchi Butsumo Son 七倶胝佛母尊), the fabulous mother of seven koṭīs of Buddhas (70 million Buddha). Other entrees in Soothill’s dictionary say she is known as well as Candī / Cundi 準提 / 准胝 / 尊提 or as Cundī-Guanyin 準提觀音 (a form of Kannon). In Brahmanic mythology, Candī / Cundi is a vindictive form of Hindu goddess Durgā, who can appear in the form of a wild boar.

Says the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism “Transliteration of Sanskrit Marici. An Indian goddess of the morning sun adopted into the Buddhist pantheon. She rides a chariot drawn by seven pigs, her charioteer either the Hindu deity Rhu or a goddess with no legs. She is the consort of Vairocana (Jp. = Dainichi), though rarely shown in yab-yum with him. She is associated with the constellations of Sagittarius and the Little Bear. She is shown with three faces and eight hands, either in her chariot or simply standing on the back of a sow. She is one of the 20 Celestials 二十天.”

According to JAANUS: Marishiten is the name of a Buddhist goddess representing an amalgamation of several Hindu antecedents, primarily the god Marici, who is considered to have been a son of Brahma (Bonten 梵天) or one of the ten patriarchs created by the first lawgiver Manu. The deity assumed female form on adoption into Japanese Buddhism. Since Marici means "light" or "mirage," Marici was regarded as a deification of mirages and being thus invisible or difficult to see was invoked in order to escape the notice of one's enemies. This martial aspect has been carried over in the cult of Marishiten in Japan, where she came to be revered as a tutelary deity of the warrior class. Later she was also worshipped as a goddess of wealth and prosperity among the merchant class, being counted along with Daikokuten 大黒天 and Benzaiten 弁財天 as one of a trio of "three deities" (Santen 三天) invoked for such a purpose during the Edo period. She assumes a variety of forms and may have one, three, five or six faces and two, six, eight, ten or twelve arms; in her many-faced manifestations, one of her faces is that of a sow, and she rides either a sow or a chariot drawn by seven pigs. Images of Marishiten are common in India, but there are few examples in Japan. Shōtakuin 聖沢院 (Kyoto) has a polychrome painting said to be of Korean provenance, while Tokudaiji Temple 徳大寺 (Tokyo) is dedicated to a large image of her dubiously attributed to Shōtoku Taishi 聖徳太子 (574-622 AD). The Nispannayogavali also describes a mandala 曼荼羅 centered on Marishiten. <end quote> Note: The Flammarion Guide says her mandala is composed of two interlaced triangles with her image in the center, dancing, surrounded by four Dakinis.

The Flammarion Guide says: “She was worshipped in Japan during the Middle Ages by warriors, especially archers, who often wore her image, protecting those who invoked her name, and making them invisible in danger. People can neither see her nor harm her. She was also worshipped by disciples of Zen and Nichiren. The Japanese have mostly forgotten her now, and she is worshipped only very occasionally. She assumes various forms [in Japan].

In order to arrive at the proper answer, it is necessary to have a close look to the Vedic character Marichi, which, according to Wikipedia itself, Rishi Marichi or Mareechi or Marishi (ṛṣi Marīci, ऋषि मरीचि) (meaning a ray of light) was the grandson of first Jain tirthankara Rishabhanatha and son of Bharata Chakravartin. He was the founder of Vedanta, hence he is believed by some as the son of Brahma. Some also consider him as one of the Saptarshi (Seven Great Sages Rishi). In another classification, Marichi is one of the ten Prajapatis, the ruler of people created by Brahma. In Jain scriptures, he is referred to as one of the previous reincarnations of the 24th Tirthankara Mahavira as son of the Bharata Chakravartin. It is Lord Krishna Himself who, in chapter 10.21 of the Bhagavad Gita who claims to be Marichi:

Bhagavad Gita, chapter 10, sloka 21:

आदित्यानामहं विष्णुर्ज्योतिषां रविरंशुमान्।

मरीचिर्मरुतामस्मि नक्षत्राणामहं शशी।।10.21।।

Translation by Swami Sivananda:

"Among the Adityas, I am Vishnu; Among luminaries, the radiant sun; I am Marichi among the Maruts; among stars the moon am I.

Otake Risuke's Retirement and Nobutoshi's Hamon[edit]

An anonymous user from IP has been adding the following daily in the last few weeks:

"The current, twentieth generation headmaster, is Iizasa Yasusada (飯篠 修理亮 快貞 Iizasa Shūri-no-suke Yasusada). He does not teach his family's system and had instead appointed as his main representative instructor Risuke Ōtake who has a personal dojo close to Narita City. Upon Ōtake Risuke's retirement, he appointed his eldest son Nobutoshi as shihan, with his younger son Shigetoshi, to serve as shihan-dai. Kyōsō Shigetoshi was appointed shihan in September 2017."

Otake Risuke does not have the authority to appoint shihan. The source does not say that he made the appointment, nor does it state anything whatsoever about Kyoso Shigetoshi. We can only assume that the brothers' appointments came from the soke, unless some source states otherwise. The term "shihan-dai" is not mentioned in any English language sources, not is 師範代 mentioned in the Japanese version of Both brothers had been listed as shihan in past publications and previous iterations of the website, before Shigetoshi broke away from the Shimbukan.

The user has also been quietly removing reference to Otake Nobutoshi's hamon. This was announced publicly on the soke's website as "Important Message" (see and has been a matter of public interest, albeit not a pleasant one for the Otake family and the Shimbukan, that has generated quite a few questions in the koryu community. Removing this information seems politically motivated.

This user recently wrote in the Edit Summary: "Around 6mths prior to Otake Risuke's retirement as shihan, he announced his retirement to the students and expressed that he wished for his son Nobutoshi to replace him and for Shigetoshi to support him as shihan-dai. A member of the Iizasa family was also present in the shinbukan for this." While I have heard similar information through word-of-mouth, the information does not appear in any source here, and certainly not in the source the user cites.

Please keep the article objective and factual.

Narf Fran (talk) 16:18, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]